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Navigating Wireless Certification: Interview with Tom Carpenter on the Impact of CWNP's Vendor-Neutral Approach to Networking Expertise
Discover the wireless certification revolution with me, Drew Lentz, your guide through the dynamic world of networking technology, as I chat with none other than Tom Carpenter. As the CTO at CWNP, he's a true trailblazer in the field, and he's here to share the tale of how vendor-neutral certifications emerged to challenge the status quo, transforming the landscape for professionals everywhere. Journey with us through Tom's personal evolution from e-learning pioneer to study guide author, and grasp the profound influence of the CWNA certification on the industry. We'll uncover the essentials of not just passing exams, but also the indispensable hands-on experience that can only be gained through rigorous training and practice.
In an era where tech knowledge is power, we'll weigh the merits of vendor-neutral certifications against their vendor-specific counterparts, considering their impact on a comprehensive understanding of wireless systems. Delving into the updates for CWDP and CWAP certifications, we illuminate the pathways for designing and analyzing cutting-edge wireless networks. As we contemplate the future of industry gatherings in the wake of COVID-19, you'll hear insights into the changing dynamics of professional gatherings and the enduring spirit of knowledge-sharing. Whether you're a seasoned pro or an aspiring techie, this episode offers access to a treasure trove of wireless wisdom, setting you on course for career advancement and success.
Hey everybody, what's up? It's Drew Lentz, the Wireless Nerd, and today I have someone who is a pioneer in the space, in the wireless world that we live in, and he's agreed to jump on the show and have one of those fun, candid conversations with me. I'm going to let Mr Tom introduce himself. Tom, who are you and what do you do?
Speaker 2:Hey Drew, I'm glad to be with you today. I'm Tom Carpenter and I'm actually the Director of Education slash, cto at CWNP, and we are a vendor neutral certification organization, so we develop certifications to help people understand how wireless technology works, regardless of the vendor that they work with, and throughout the majority of our history, the focus has been primarily on Wi-Fi. Over the last four or five years, we've started into the wireless IoT world, which utilizes a lot of protocols and technologies that are not necessarily Wi-Fi, so our focus is still the same it's on helping people implement the wireless technologies that they need to achieve success in their organizations.
Speaker 1:That's awesome and you know. Take me back to a time before CWNP when you had vendor certifications. You didn't even have that many vendor certification options, right, you had Cisco and then you had let me see, you had Cisco. What else did you have? You had CompTIA, right, but then there was also Cisco. When you got started with this, when you came on board, I mean, what was the impetus for something like CWMP getting started and why wireless Of all the things that are out there? Why a vendor agnostic or vendor neutral? Take on, you know, getting people certified in wireless.
Speaker 2:You know that's a great question and there's an interesting history behind it. The funny thing is I didn't come officially on board to CWNP until 2012,. But I first began to do work with them 20 years ago, starting in 2004, when I created e-learning for their certifications and then wrote their at that time official study guides through McGraw-Hill. But the company started in 1999 and launched their first certification in 2001. And interestingly, when they launched their certification, I'm thinking back I don't think that the first version of CCNA Wireless was even out yet.
Speaker 1:No, it wasn't, and I took it and that's the only reason I know it, because there was something called the CWNA and it was the Cisco Wireless Network Administrator. And I remember taking that test in Richardson, sitting through the class and then a couple of years later I think it was at I want to say it was at Interop, networld, interop, where there was this this little booth and they were just handing out these books and they're like take this, take this home and read it. We're trying to get something started and, if I'm not mistaken, you wrote that book it's possible.
Speaker 2:If it was the very first version, it was written by devin aiken. Um, if it was the first one through mcgraw hill, then that would have been the one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that was it yeah, not trying to take anything away from from our buddy dave devon at all, but yeah, it was what and? And so so this started. You guys focused on the wireless side. What? Um, and you're right, I don't think cisco had had the ccna wireless. I think it was just that cwna certification that they had. That cwna is now, uh, you know is, is your certification right or is the CWMP certification for wireless?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it was actually launched, originally intended to be launched at a major conference in September of 2001. It was actually September 11th and it was the first day of this big conference. They were supposed to have press come around and talk to them about it there in Las Vegas and of course, as we all know, everything changed that day. Everybody's plans stopped and so, even though it wasn't officially launched at that conference, they did go ahead and push forward with it and begin there in 2001 to get CWNA out there. It and begin there in 2001 to get CWNA out there. And then it was a couple of years later when they released their next cert.
Speaker 2:A lot of people don't know this, but their second certification was CWSP, so that one came along shortly thereafter. And that was actually my first opportunity to meet folks that were at CWNP in those early days, because I attended the beta training class for that, which was in Atlanta, georgia, and had the opportunity to meet not only them but a lot of other pioneers in the Wi-Fi space. Because my experience before getting involved with CWNP was very, very diverse. I was working with server technologies and wired networking technologies and database technologies and knowledge management systems and just general IT consultancy is what I had done in my business from 1997 up to that point, and then my focus began to shift over the next 10 years, after meeting them, to be more focused on wireless technologies.
Speaker 1:There you go and then talk to me about the e-learning component of it, because it seems like that's what you brought. Is that correct? That's what you brought into the mix over here. Tell me about that Going from just staring at a book to figuring out ways to apply that understanding or that knowledge and then move that forward into a certification. Talk to me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so the funny thing is that was one of the things that I brought to the table when I came to CWNP, because I had done 53, 54 e-learning programs between 2002 and 2012. And so in April of 2012, when, at the time, kevin Sandlin, who was running CWNP, asked me to come on board, one of the first things he said is, hey, we need to start developing e-learning pretty soon because you have background experience in that, and so that began that process. And it was funny because up to that point, I was just the guy behind the camera. There was always a team of people and they were in a studio running the cameras and running the sound gear, and so I had to start learning about that. And what that did for me a lot of people don't know this about me is it made me a huge lover of microphones?
Speaker 1:So you only see part of it. I was going to ask what you have hanging. You can see the very this is a Blue Mouse microphone.
Speaker 2:It's my favorite microphone in the world, both because of its industrial design and I love the sound quality that it has. But yeah, I've got. So I've got probably 70, 75 microphones in my collection now. That's awesome Because I love them. I've got ribbon mics and and old mics like I picked up. You got a great deal on this original Shure 1960s microphone.
Speaker 1:Wow, man, elvis Presley used that one. Yeah, that was the James Brown microphone. Right there, man, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:So I guess the point is, I already knew about signals, so I said, okay, it's time to master the sound.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 1:Understand audio signals you know, I wonder if that's a, I wonder if not the microphone thing. But I wonder if that's a thing pretty common with a lot of people in tech. It seems like. It seems like rabbit holes are are, you know, the day-to-day. It's like, oh man, I'm not just gonna get a little bit involved in something, I'm gonna get knee deep in it. You know, and I, you know, I, I love a good microphone.
Speaker 1:This is, you know, the know, the old classic, the SM7, right, you can't go wrong with it. This is the USB version, though this one's a little bit different. I've got to run it through a compressor and an EQ to get the sound just right. But yeah, man, I mean, I think a good mic goes a long way.
Speaker 1:You know, it's funny that, not to go off completely on a tangent, but anyone who listens to this show knows that I always, I'm always very particular about the sound quality. I want to make sure it sounds good, because video can go bad. I don't. You know, I don't care, but sound quality to me is what really drives at home, and so it's always difficult where I've got to do like 17 sound checks to get someone tuned in the right way. Yours, I'd like tweaked one knob just to make sure my volume was right. But you know, in, in, in the education side, in the education side, in the training side, I think a lot of that makes a difference the way that your voice comes across, the way that you ingest information. The wrong mic man can put you to sleep, or the wrong video can put you to sleep. What is it that you do that's different other than a great mic and great sound? What are things that make your e-learning courses or the practices that you have? What makes that better than anyone else?
Speaker 2:You know, I think the thing that does make it unique, and this is why I ended up creating 50-something.
Speaker 1:There you go. Unique, not better. How about that? I don't want to throw shade on anyone.
Speaker 2:This is one of the reasons why I created some 50-something e-learning programs before because I was partnering with a company based out of Utah and we were creating e-learning and the reason they liked to work with me was because I never used a script, and everyone else they worked with always wanted to tell a prompter. They wanted a script for every word they were going to say and I just taught like I would teach in a class, and so that's what I do on our e-learning too. So you know, a lot of times I'm not on screen with our e-learning. It's just a video of a slide and I'm lecturing, but people don't realize I don't have any notes in front of me. I don't have a script that I'm reading. I'm just talking to you about what's on the screen, just like I would in a live training class.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:I think that does bring that unique perspective. You know it causes me to get the advantage of whatever dynamically comes to mind is important for whoever might be viewing and I'm always visualizing an individual that I'm talking to. That's why you don't hear me say very much. All of you might be familiar with this or that. I'm always saying you because I realize I'm not talking to 500 people at a time. I'm talking to one person that is on there listening to that e-learning, just like right now. You and I are talking to each other, but we're talking to one other person at a time.
Speaker 1:That's right and I think that's it's so. It's such a fun thing to think about. I remember when I first started the podcast about got about four or five episodes in. I listening to to you know, some one of those advice ones like here's what to do on your podcast, and and it really drove home the point, exactly like you're saying, which is which is there's someone running right now or sitting on an airplane or waiting at a gate or board or whatever it is, but we're in their heads, like we are literally in their heads with their airpods. We're not talking to 15 different people, we're talking to one person you. The person that's listening to this is the audience, and I think that if you go too wide, that's where people's eyes start to glaze over and they're like, oh man, this guy's trying to approach everyone. What about me? So what a fun concept. So what else do you do? That's different. Okay, hold on Back on the e-learning side.
Speaker 1:So the e-learning courses. Tell me a little bit about what that offering looks like from CWMP. What is it? I mean, is this one-to-one courses? Is this pre-recorded stuff? Is it live, is it?
Speaker 2:in person. What are the options there? Yeah, it is pre-recorded. Anyone who wants live training, they would work through one of our authorized learning centers, our ALCs. We have them all over the world and basically it's a training company that can offer our training classes in person, live, or they can do virtual classes online. So when someone wants a live, real, dynamic trainer right in front of them, then that's when they can work with one of our various ALCs. We have several in the United States and then one in every major region around the world at least.
Speaker 2:So the e-learning is prerecorded. It has some, you know, chapter questions at the end to make sure you've listened and understood what was there. We do also have practice exams that we make available online to help people prepare as a learning tool. And, by the way, let me say, with this opportunity about practice tests and practice exams, in that there's a common mistake people make, I feel, when utilizing those, and that is that they go through both practice exam pools that they have and then they do it again the next day and get a better score and think that they've somehow improved their knowledge. The best thing you can do is do the first pool of exam items and mark down everything that you got wrong and go back and do some more learning on that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And then, a few days or a week later, take the second pool and compare the score on the second pool with the score on the first pool. Now you know if you've actually learned more information. Interesting, because what happens is, when you look at the items you missed, you will remember many of those, whether you realize it or not. You'll remember what you chose the last time and you'll just choose something different. So, statistically, you're going to improve the odds of getting it right, even though you may not have learned anything new.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic advice.
Speaker 2:Use them as tools and not as just some quick hit analysis.
Speaker 1:So what you're touching on is so much bigger than just in my head. It's so much bigger than just what CWMP is doing. And this goes back to the vendor agnostic approach. I think you know I do want to ask the question eventually why do you think the industry has taken to you all so widely? Because that is, that's a big question. That's one of those big you question why is it that everyone looks at CWNP and says you know what the CWNA is, the new certification that everyone must baseline have?
Speaker 1:You've got the NT, you have the whole course of these that run back and forth, but from a difference perspective. It seems like it's not just the courseware that's different in the understanding and the agnostic knowledge component of it, it's also the way that you deliver it. If you're not beholden to a vendor you're not going to talk about, you're not going to be forced to talk about, you know specific items that are technology-based items, only for that vendor. You know like I think, beamflex right You're not just leaning on one thing, saying, okay, I have to teach this component so that they're certified in my piece of equipment what you know. From a larger perspective, it seems like you're doing more good for people that have that, that want that general knowledge. But does that make the test any more difficult or does that make the test easier?
Speaker 2:You know, I think it can vary for different people depending on whether you are better at learning and understanding concepts or better at learning and understanding procedures. So the vendor specific certifications are more procedural.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're going to have the steps you need to take, the tool you need to use, what you need to configure in the interface, that kind of thing. We're going to focus more on the conceptual, making sure you understand how things actually work, and so I think whether it's more challenging or not is just going to depend on that element of your learning style.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like if you learn better, like that, okay, I will say, though, what I think has given us an advantage and made it so appealing to people to get our certifications is, if you think about it without any intentionality at all, a vendor is going to teach you what their technologies can do, yeah, and they're not going to teach you what their technologies cannot do, even if, say, 802.11 does offer it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even if the capability could be there with the right hardware right. So we're going to teach you the knowledge that allows you to properly evaluate vendors, because now you can look at what a vendor is offering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why aren't you offering this and that? Well, our radios don't support that. Oh, OK, I see. Yeah, and it gives you that understanding to better be able to evaluate the industry as a whole, specific vendors, and to understand what you need to reach the end goal that you're after. And now you're not going to be manipulated again, whether it's with or without intentionality, by any vendor that might tell you ours is best because of X, you will know. Hey, there's also Y and Z, and you're not even talking about that yeah so what do?
Speaker 1:you do about y and z, that's, and we give you the knowledge to know and understand that yeah, and I think that goes into that question of why do you think more people, not more people? But it really feels like and again, wireless is a pretty small circle and if you're not, you know, if you're not in the industry, if you're not, if you don't feel like an active part of it, you're. If you're listening to this podcast and you're listening to me and you're listening to, you know Keith, or you're listening to, you know Francois, or whoever it is talking about this, and you don't feel like you're part of it, that means you probably haven't been to WLPC. So free plug again for WLPC, because once you're there, you do, you see everyone and you talk to everyone and you feel like you're a part of what this industry has become. And when you get there, you realize that everyone is about sharing that knowledge and sharing that information and coming to a baseline of understanding before identifying who does what in which way. And I really feel like that's one of our strong suits, more so in the wireless industry than a lot of the other ones, where we are not beholden to any single vendor and from day to day, from conference to conference, from show to show, from technology to technology that can change. I mean, I look at I'm not picking on Ruckus by any means, I did mention BeanFlex earlier but I look at the stronghold that Ruckus had on the hospitality industry and it was like one day Ruckus was all there, was in hospitality and now that's branched out, was in hospitality and now that's branched out. Or you look at campus, one day it was you know one vendor and the next day it's, it's everybody that's out there. So we're not really.
Speaker 1:We pride ourselves, I think, in making sure that we understand the fundamentals of all of it, so that we can decipher what's different from vendor to vendor. And I think that's, I think that is one of the reasons that people gravitate towards the certifications from cwnp so much as it does give us, like you said, that baseline understanding but also gives us that ability to be curious about where vendors are going and what they're doing. So, that being said, what's next for you all? I mean, first off, how often do you change the courseware, the questions, et cetera, et cetera, on these exams? Because I know we've got sevens, know seven's out, we're on the cusp of eight, of Wi-Fi eight. When's the next? And I don't know if this is I'm not trying to ask a taboo question, but you know when's the next refresh coming, when there's more you know more features that are added. How often does that normally happen and what do we have to look forward to with some of your the wireless exams?
Speaker 2:Sure, well, first of all, we are on a three-year cycle in our CWNA track. So CWNA and all the exams and certifications in that track, they're on a three-year cycle. So every three years they're updated the books, the e-learning, the practice tests, the exams, they're all refreshed. And this year in particular, we are updating CWDP and CWAP. Okay, so they will be getting their refresh this year. In our IoT track, we're also updating CWIDP this year.
Speaker 1:Okay, what are those? So DP is design right.
Speaker 2:DP is design and AP is analysis.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh man.
Speaker 2:So CWAP is your protocol analyzer, spectrum analyzer, knowing all the frames, the bits and bytes.
Speaker 1:Yes, the Peter McKenzie special. That's where you get the propeller hat right when you take that.
Speaker 2:I believe the phrase from many years ago was frames never lie.
Speaker 1:There you go. I love it, okay. And then you said IoT. Sorry, I keep interrupting, but I'm just laughing. No, that's great.
Speaker 2:So, then, the IoT track which we launched, starting in 2019, it is on at least up to now has been on a two-year cycle, just because it's so new and fresh. It will probably be reverting to three years going forward, as we do updates, but at this point, it's being updated every two years for those certifications. So we do also have CWIDP being updated this year, and we're also updating CWT and CWS this year, our very entry-level low-stakes certifications.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are great. I mean that's when people ask where should I start. You know I like to lean in with that one and say, hey, start at the very beginning, see if this is something that's interesting, you know, interesting to you, and then work your way up through it because those are very good. Basic fundamental understanding, uh, you know, just knowledge like this is this is what it is. This is the whole, the whole. Uh, reddit wi-fi group should be reading, you know, should be doing those that coursework I was explaining to someone the other day about. You know how wi-fi is like a light bulb, you know, and it's there's some very basic, good concepts in there that build you into it. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Now, okay, so let me ask another question. I remember you all at one point had a trade show. You all had an event. What happened there? Is there any future going into that? Is that something you guys are ever looking to resurrect? I never got a chance to go, unfortunately, and by the time I was ready to go it was no longer. Let's reminisce for just a second on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we had the event we did for several years and then, of course, 2020 came and we were scheduled that year to do it. We ended up switching to virtual and had one of the best virtual events I've ever seen anybody put on, and we got a lot of positive feedback from it. I was surprised for how good it went off. I didn't have anything to do with it, it was other team members that made it happen. That's awesome. I just got to sit in a seat and pretend like I was special, but that went really well and got a lot of great feedback.
Speaker 2:And then there were, of course, that was the year of the big C and then in the next year there were some health issues with some leadership in the organization and different things that happened and it kind of put everything on a back burner and things slowed down, and so that has been really with us year over year since that time and things are starting to move in a better, upward and motivated direction among leadership again. So we'll see what the future holds. This year we're not doing anything, but we are definitely evaluating the possibility next year.
Speaker 2:We are considering doing just a virtual event. We do want to support WLPC and encourage people to attend that. It's a great conference that happens in February in Phoenix each year here in the United States, and they also have European versions and some other versions as well in other areas I understand. So we're thinking about maybe being that virtual conference that happens a little bit later in the year that people don't have to get a budget to go to and yeah, yeah they can kind of get a midway update between wlpc phoenix one and then the next wlpc phoenix, so we're we're considering that as an option for next year actually awesome.
Speaker 1:And then you had you know, and then of course, wi-fi design day popped up and and I really I'm digging the, the waiko group that Peter Mack's doing McKenzie's doing the little get-togethers. There's a lot more fun happening, I feel like, in the industry, and that's why I wanted to ask, because I know that for those that went they enjoyed it. You never hear anything negative about it. You all took a little bit of a different route sponsorships and so on, on and so forth than WLPC takes, which I'm not at all opposed to, just, fyi, I don't think a lot of people are opposed to, as long as it's done tastefully. I mean that's the key, right. But yeah, I'm all for it. Man, I think that I love the information sharing that we have in this industry. It's just such a great way where all of us like to share that information with each other. We like to talk about different stuff.
Speaker 1:I really think back on Phoenix this year. The first day, man, I walked in like I checked my bags in and I ran into three or four different people in the lobby. I just had a dream about it the other night. I was like man. One of my favorite times of the year is registration at WLPC, because you get dropped off in the Uber, the taxi and you walk in the lobby. And you get dropped off in the Uber, the taxi and you walk in the lobby and it's like, all right, who am I going to see? And then we walked into this ballroom and you've got four or five different vendors all standing around trying to figure out how to help another vendor get MLO working on their access point. It was just taking a second to inventory exactly what was going on. It was so cool because there are sales pitches and there are. You know, our equipment's better and this is better and this is worse and they suck and we're better and whatever.
Speaker 1:And for a brief moment, in this industry you really get to see that we all get along because we all are nerds, at the end of the day, that are into this, and I think that that translates with what you all are doing. It's you know, it's not about which vendor you work for, it's not about the certification track that they have. It's about getting that general understanding and that knowledge to make sure that you understand what you're doing in this industry. So you can do the CW&A, do the CW&P, get your CW&E and then work your way into you know what. This is a great way to look at the different vendors and how what you're doing translates. But then bring out the specific features. Do you work with any of the vendors or are they like? No way, man, you guys are on your own planet.
Speaker 2:We have over the years, at different times, had partnerships with different vendors in different ways and it comes and goes. It depends on the leadership and the vendor at the time, and it's usually a partnership where they will have their own training internally and they want their staff to go through our CWNA training first, or they'll even work with their VARs and they'll require that their VARs have at least one person with our certification to get a certain discount advantage or something. So we do have some of those out there and they've been successful over the years and all the vendors, except for the biggest one, which shall go unnamed, have been very willing to work with us over the years.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. And I know, just on the other side of the coin, for the people that are applying for jobs and looking for positions I think you see it more now than you've ever seen it where CWNA, cwmp, cwne are being listed as criteria for employment, which is very cool to see. It's really neat. I mean it's so cool to watch a company that started in an industry that was so vendor-driven and be able to carve out a niche and be so agnostic. Because I really don't feel like and again, I'm blinded because we're in wireless, right. You don't see this in switching. You don't see this in routing. You don't see this in security.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's some good. Comptia has got some of the really good stuff that they do. You know they've got the a plus right, but then they also have, you know, some of the cyber security stuff. But it's hard, it's hard to find another industry that has such a vendor agnostic um, uh, following and base, and I think it's really cool. So kudos to you guys for for doing that. Uh, before before we head out anything, any last items, any tidbits of information, some help. I mean, where can people get a hold of you all? How do they if someone wants to take a test or learn more? Where do they go? Give me those contact deets.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Of course, you can follow us on Twitter CWNP and our website is cwnpcom.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm also on Twitter. I'm not at Tom Carpenter, I'm at Carpenter Tom because someone else had already taken the other one, and you'll find me on LinkedIn and other places as well. So we also have a CWNP group on LinkedIn that you can join and chat with other folks in the CWNP journey and so forth. So a lot of different ways that people can get in touch with us.
Speaker 1:Perfect, awesome. Well, tom, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us. It's always fun to have people from across the industry join us. And if you all haven't met Tom, you were at WLPC this year. You spoke right, you had a deal. Yeah, man, I saw you up on that stage. Are you going to do Prague? I just got a notification. Someone said hey, I just booked Prague.
Speaker 2:I was like dude. All right, that is still uncertain. At this point.
Speaker 1:Oh man, Well, that's fun. I'm trying to figure out how to get a. I'm going to get the little earpiece to translate so we can all go to Valencia or wherever they're doing the one in Spain. That's where I want the next destination to be. Anyway well, Tom, thanks so much for your time. I appreciate you chatting with me and everyone at Waves, and with that I'm going to go ahead and sign Waves off.
Speaker 2:I hope you all have a wonderful week and we will talk to you soon.
